- This topic has 46 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
I stay away from Darnold and go Rosen. I know one thing overall for sure – I stay the hell away from Allen.
Freedom!!!
I know one thing overall for sure – I stay the hell away from Allen.
Well I think we absolutely need to draft Allen then.
I know one thing overall for sure – I stay the hell away from Allen.
Well I think we absolutely need to draft Allen then.
56% completion in college. He’s worse version of Kizer.
Freedom!!!
56% completion in college. He’s worse version of Kizer.
Opinion based on one single stat without watching him play?
I’m sold.
I should preface this by saying that I’m no “Mike Holmgren” or “Hue Jackson” QB guru… But I’ve been right sometimes.
If I had to pick one of the two I’d pick Rosen. Darnold scares me, I just really don’t see it with him.
If anyone took the time to read my novel on QB winning % in college translating to the NFL success, you’ll know that I don’t feel great about Rosen, either. But he definitely “looks the part” more than Darnold does.
My favorite QB prospects in this draft are 1.) Drew Lock from Missouri and 2.) Mayfield.
I really like Lock, I kind of like Mayfield and Rosen, and I understand the Allen buzz. When I watch Darnold, I feel like I’m missing something…
Rosen won’t want to play here, and Darnold looks like he needs a yr or two on the bench, Mayfield was exposed by the bulldogs so take your pick.
56% completion in college. He’s worse version of Kizer.
Opinion based on one single stat without watching him play?
I’m sold.For what it’s worth, using Soup’s method for determining a QB prospect’s future success would have been more successful than whatever the f_ the Browns have been doing, at least going back to 2010..
We probably still would have drafted Brandon Weeden over Luck and Wilson… And Johnny Manziel over Bridgewater and Mariota…. And Definitely Cody Kessler over Goff and Wentz (those two were almost as bad as Kizer!)…
But at least we would have finally gotten it right this year with Trubisky..
Brandon Weeden: 72%
Colt McCoy: 70%
Johnny Manziel: 70%
Cody Kessler: 68%
Teddy Bridgewater: 68%
Marcus Mariota: 68%
Mitch Trubisky: 68%
A.J. McCarron: 67%
Deshaun Watson: 67%
Robert Griffin: 67%
Andrew Luck: 67%
Blake Bortles: 66%
Derek Carr: 66%
Patrick Mahomes: 64%
Carson Wentz: 63%
Jared Goff: 62%
Jimmy Garoppolo: 62%
DeShone Kizer: 61%
Russell Wilson: 61%DAYUM, he just broke out the Brandon Weeden argument. So if it’s up to Soup, he Mike Holmgren’s the fuck outta this draft?!
I’m with Blump- screw your size prejudice, I like Mayfield. Dude’s got fire.
56% completion in college. He’s worse version of Kizer.
Opinion based on one single stat without watching him play?
I’m sold.For what it’s worth, using Soup’s method for determining a QB prospect’s future success would have been more successful than whatever the f_ the Browns have been doing, at least going back to 2010..
We probably still would have drafted Brandon Weeden over Luck and Wilson… And Johnny Manziel over Bridgewater and Mariota…. And Definitely Cody Kessler over Goff and Wentz (those two were almost as bad as Kizer!)…
But at least we would have finally gotten it right this year with Trubisky..
Brandon Weeden: 72%
Colt McCoy: 70%
Johnny Manziel: 70%
Cody Kessler: 68%
Teddy Bridgewater: 68%
Marcus Mariota: 68%
Mitch Trubisky: 68%
A.J. McCarron: 67%
Deshaun Watson: 67%
Robert Griffin: 67%
Andrew Luck: 67%
Blake Bortles: 66%
Derek Carr: 66%
Patrick Mahomes: 64%
Carson Wentz: 63%
Jared Goff: 62%
Jimmy Garoppolo: 62%
DeShone Kizer: 61%
Russell Wilson: 61%Actually I wanted:
Goff
Bridgewater
Watson
Mccaron (in the later rounds)I wanted no parts of:
Manziel
Trubisky (that early. Not enough starts)
Wentz (not enough starts and played putrud competition)
Kizer (4-8 and benched multiple times)
Mccoy
WeedenIn one thread I posted Allen scouting report. That said, give me a great QB that’s an NFL starter since 2000 who had a college completion % comparable to Allen’s 56%
Freedom!!!
Despite losing to a superior team is tOSU I LIKED what Darnold showed me. He didn’t a have really running support or top flight receivers to speak of but kept USC in the game and was throwing guys open left and right.
Anticipation throwing and throwing guys open IMO is a rare trait out of college QB’s these days IMO.
The more Darnold tape I watch the more another USC QB comes to mind. Carson Palmer.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
The more Darnold tape I watch the more another USC QB comes to mind. Carson Palmer.
That’s actually a pretty good comparison. However, if we take him, I hope he isn’t 36 years old by the time he becomes elite.
However, if we take him, I hope he isn’t 36 years old by the time he becomes elite.
In defense of Palmer, he was looking the part of elite QB before Kimo Von Olhoffen Nancy Kerriganned his knee in that playoff game. It took Palmer longer than most to get over that injury.
As for the QB debate, I don’t know at this point. I’m apt to sit back for a while and watch this thing rage for the next 4+ months leading up to the draft. I was high on Rosen at first, but his attitude was a major red flag for me (And not because of his comments about playing here).
I don’t have strong enough opinions either way about any of them. I’ve heard some really good things, but also some really bad things about just about all of them so far. I haven’t seen a lot of video on them. (Although admittedly I did watch a couple UCLA games and came away impressed with Rosen).
I’m going to wait it out for a while and watch everyone here and around the country call each other idiots before I jump in with both feet.
I’d like to add a different angle to this discussion as well.
I think that the “who” involved is obviously an important choice, the “how are we going to develop him” I think is even more important.
Darnold and Rosen are both 20. They’ll be freshly turned 21 at the start of training camp. I don’t really care who the Browns take to be honest, (I’ll trust the opinions of Dorsey, Highsmith, and Hue on that one). What I care most about is what we do with them once they get here. I am of the opinion that we should bring in a solid, experienced, veteran free agent to start the entire season, while whoever we draft sits. Make that known immediately so the “put in so and so” calls don’t even start. Let the yound kid sit and LEARN for a while without any pressure, and see how the game is played. Let him actually develop.
I was never a fan of Kizer coming out of college, but even more I wasn’t a fan of getting rid of McCown and trotting Kizer out there. (As I’ve mentioned before, I’m absolutely convinced the Browns win at least 5-6 games with McCown at QB this year, just look at what he did with the Jets). Kizer would have benefitted greatly by sitting and watching. But his career is most definitely over now. Any cance of success he may ave had (admittedly small) was destroyed by throwing him out there completely unprepared for the NFL game.
I don’t want to see that happen again. I want a veteran QB who can not only play but play well and win games to come in here and start for this team for a year, preferably 2 while the team as a whole really develops and whoever we take at QB parks it on the bench and learns. If we take Darnold or Rosen and they ride the bench for two years, they’ll be 23 when we hand them the keys. They’ll also have 2 years left on their rookie deals to prove what they can do and give the organization time to make a decision about their long term future.
That……is development.
The thought of bringing in a kid that has oodles of potential, has all of the intangibles built-in, and has no ceiling because of his level of talent coming in here and getting thrown out on the field week one and watching his entire career get flushed is something that just can’t bear.
Give me 2 years of Alex Smith, a couple of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 seasons, and then let the future take over.
I’d do anything to see it happen this way.
I agree on the veteran, but only if it’s a smart choice (meaning not a guy like Matt Moore). I’d love Alex Smith or AJ McCaron (more so since he absolutely knows Hues offense and was successful in it).
Freedom!!!
No QB on our roster this year has ever won an NFL game. Let that one sink in. How do you build success out of that? Who can our rookie learn from? Whose habits will he mimic?
Clearly Kizer will be on the roster next year, no matter how many times Soup screams to cut him. I think it’s also clear that we’ll add a vet and a rookie. The only way we can afford to not add a QB with one of our top 4 picks is if we add Kirk Cousins who would be our QB of the foreseeable future.
That’s not a direction I’m in favor of.The top 3 qbs in this draft I am just not sold on. Sucks the year we almost certainly have to draft one is also the year that really no one stands out.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
I agree on the veteran, but only if it’s a smart choice (meaning not a guy like Matt Moore). I’d love Alex Smith or AJ McCaron (more so since he absolutely knows Hues offense and was successful in it).
Absolutely. Signing Tom Savage doesn’t do us any good. I’m saying the same things you are. Alex Smith. I’d take an AJ mcCarron. Up in Minny there’s no way that Keenum Bridgewwater and Bradford all stay there next year, I’d be happy with any one of them as a stopgap for 2 years. Something along those lines. A proven veteran that can win games and operate an offense. He’s not gonna be expected to win a superbowl, just someone who can manage an offense and not turn the ball over.
No QB on our roster this year has ever won an NFL game. Let that one sink in.
Horrible. That’s unreal to even consider.
Clearly Kizer will be on the roster next year, no matter how many times Soup screams to cut him. I think it’s also clear that we’ll add a vet and a rookie.
Agreed. And I have no real problem with that. Kizer can stay, he’s just really not allowed to play lol. Like I’ve said, sign the vet, he’s the starter. Kizer is the backup, and the kid sits down and learns. Kizer can as well.
The only way we can afford to not add a QB with one of our top 4 picks is if we add Kirk Cousins who would be our QB of the foreseeable future.
That’s not a direction I’m in favor of.I’m like the Redskins, I honestly have no idea how I feel about Cousins. I constantly go back and forth. I can make an argument that he’s a top tier QB in the NFL, and I can make an argument that he’s average at best and destined for mediocrity. I can make both arguments soundly. I have know idea which one to believe.
My take on Cousins (which I know everyone wants to avoid) is that he’s in a shit division and can’t win. So I really am not for hm unless it’s an RG3 type deal. No risk high reward.
Freedom!!!
So Rosen says he doesn’t want to play for the Browns. He has had controversial things that have revolved around him….not like manziel, but still he is coming out arrogant and very egotistical.
Possible we move back in the draft?
Hue Jackson is a loser.
My take on Cousins (which I know everyone wants to avoid) is that he’s in a shit division and can’t win. So I really am not for hm unless it’s an RG3 type deal. No risk high reward.
He’s likely going to get the biggest QB contract ever, so put those hopes to bed now.
The only question is who pays it.
Knock Cousins all you like…dude has thrown for over 4000 yards for the past 3 seasons…with a 65% completion rate.
You could take 1000 off of that total, and it beats any QB we’ve had in years.
Knock Cousins all you like…dude has thrown for over 4000 yards for the past 3 seasons…with a 65% completion rate.
You could take 1000 off of that total, and it beats any QB we’ve had in years.Yards or wins? I want wins. I just don’t feel he’s a game changer. If he was there’s no reason for Washington to not be in the playoffs. They are in a terrible division
Freedom!!!
I just don’t know if he’s gotten a fair shake being in Washington. I mean as DPD has mentioned, the numbers are there. They are. They’re what you want and what you’re looking for. Statistically Cousins is a top tier QB and it’s not even disputable. But…….what has he, done?
But Washington is a shit team with shit talent too. They lost Reed, they have no recievers, their running game sucks and Gruden is a meanderingly average coach, at best. Still, he’s won some really big games for them and taken them to the playoffs. He’s also Tony Romo’d them right into a loss on many occasions.
Is it all on him, or a product of being surrounded by suck?
I just don’t know.
Ice said it perfectly though, he’s getting big fat payday from someone. And if it’s us, he’s here for the long term, not as a stopgap.
Those numbers get you at least two. And two is a shitload better than none.
I don’t give two fucks what division he’s from. He’s light years better than anything we have. Not to mention that I doubt those losses fall solely on his shoulders.
And lets face it…our options are pretty limited. We’re very likely overpaying to get anyone here, and you really can’t blame them for milking the Haslam cow.
Now, I don’t think we sign Cousins. If Sashi was still here, I would have put my chips on them signing Taylor (I know, nothing great, but still much better than our no-win QBs). With Dorsey in place now, Smith is the name you’re gonna hear come up most until March.
I will say this though- we get at the least a serviceable QB, we have a decent young team and a lot of draft picks. And then the whole “who’s fault was it” argument between Sashi, Hue, Kizer, Williams, etc. should have a clear winner for the finger-pointing.
I’m just going to leave this here…
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/brett-favre-1.html
When I watched Allen’s highlights, this is who I was reminded of. When I watched Allen’s game film, two things jumped out at me:
1) Ball Velocity
2) Number of dropped catchable passes due to velocity.I think this kid has the highest ceiling in the draft. I see a lot of the same potential in him I saw in Mahomes. Pat has a more natural throwing motion, but Josh has a better frame.
As a numbers guy, I know the correlation between completion percentage and success at the next level. As a film guy, I’m telling you NFL WRs are going to improve his numbers. I trade back to #2 knowing Rosen doesnt’t want to play here, take RB Saquon Barkley at #2 knowing Barkley will be the target at 3 (Indy holds the pick but will likely trade out) take Allen at #4 and package some of our second round picks with the haul we get from the Giants and move back into the mid first to grab WR Courtland Sutton.
I’m also a fan of bringing a humbled Pryor back into the fold (along with a bridge QB – Smith/Bridgewater/Bradford/Keenum).
I know we love the trenches, but at some point we have to score points. I’ve been arguing this since my Dawgbones “fix the O” mock draft.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0I’m just going to leave this here…
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/brett-favre-1.html
When I watched Allen’s highlights, this is who I was reminded of. When I watched Allen’s game film, two things jumped out at me:
1) Ball Velocity
2) Number of dropped catchable passes due to velocity.
I think this kid has the highest ceiling in the draft. I see a lot of the same potential in him I saw in Mahomes. Pat has a more natural throwing motion, but Josh has a better frame.
As a numbers guy, I know the correlation between completion percentage and success at the next level. As a film guy, I’m telling you NFL WRs are going to improve his numbers. I trade back to #2 knowing Rosen doesnt’t want to play here, take RB Saquon Barkley at #2 knowing Barkley will be the target at 3 (Indy holds the pick but will likely trade out) take Allen at #4 and package some of our second round picks with the haul we get from the Giants and move back into the mid first to grab WR Courtland Sutton.
I’m also a fan of bringing a humbled Pryor back into the fold (along with a bridge QB – Smith/Bridgewater/Bradford/Keenum).
I know we love the trenches, but at some point we have to score points. I’ve been arguing this since my Dawgbones “fix the O” mock draft.Appreciate you finding that. The reason I stated since 2000 is due to how much the game has changed. But let’s accept this anyway.
In 27 years you’ve found one guy to fit the criteria. That’s a very Browns mentality – doing things “no one else” has done before rather than going the smart route.
That’s kind of my point. No different than waiting until the 6th round for A QB because Tom Brady.
Freedom!!!
Alright, back to the draft…
So I just watched highlights on three of the top prospects (yes, highlights, not full games…so I didn’t get to see bad plays)- Rosen, Darnold, and Allen. My take thus far…
Rosen: definitely the most “pro-ready”, but with the lowest ceiling of these 3. Very much a traditional pocket passer, makes great throws. My problems with him is that elongated, easy to read throwing motion, and that he doesn’t move his eyes a lot. Just…something about his game doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t see “elite” here.
Darnold: very intriguing. If I could draw an easy comparison, it would be DeShaun Watson, due to having the “it” factor. In the video I watched, he was making amazing throws with a quick release, several reads, running his ass off…he’s going to be special. My personal preference for #1 overall.
Allen: out of these 3, Allen may end up being the best, eventually. Huge arm, quick release, has this weird “flick” that’s super quick (and strangely accurate) and runs around like Manziel did in college. Saw a few times his receivers had to make circus catches. Would likely be great with a team that has 2 or more decent receivers. Can’t see him going #1, and may fall to round 2 (unlikely).
I’ll look into Mayfield and Jackson tomorrow. Sleep meds have kicked in, and my genetics have changed.
I trade back to #2 knowing Rosen doesnt’t want to play here, take RB Saquon Barkley at #2 knowing Barkley will be the target at 3 (Indy holds the pick but will likely trade out) take Allen at #4 and package some of our second round picks with the haul we get from the Giants and move back into the mid first to grab WR Courtland Sutton.
I would consider this an absolute coup and complete military take over of the NFL if that happens.
Other names that are top-5 worthy:
Minkah Fitzpatrick – FS/CB and amazing talent
An offensive tackle (Brown, Williams) – JT still hasn’t committed to playing next year. Better start planning for the worst.
Chubb – DE pass rusher. Why do we need a pass rusher if Ogbah is healthy? We don’t. But if he’s there at 4 he may be the best player available. The trio of Ogbah, Garrett, and Chubb is a DC’s wet dream and an opposing QB’s nightmare.Strategy-wise, 2 of the top 3 picks will be QB whether we make the picks or someone else. That means that our pick at 4th overall gets us the 2nd-best non-QB in the draft. At this point Barkeley looks like the guy who will join Darnold and Rosen in the top 3. I’m not big on drafting a RB in the 1st round at all even if it’s Barkeley. That 4th overall pick (assuming we’ve drafted a qb at 1) will get us an AMAZING player. I like Fitzpatrick not only because of our need but because of his talent.
I trade back to #2 knowing Rosen doesnt’t want to play here, take RB Saquon Barkley at #2 knowing Barkley will be the target at 3 (Indy holds the pick but will likely trade out) take Allen at #4 and package some of our second round picks with the haul we get from the Giants and move back into the mid first to grab WR Courtland Sutton.
I would consider this an absolute coup and complete military take over of the NFL if that happens.
Terrible idea. We’re banking our QB of the future on A.) the team at 1 not taking the qb we want, b.) the team at 3 not taking or trading with another team that takes the qb we want, and c.) the qb we want at 4 being better than the qb(s) other teams already drafted because they liked more. I hate that.
We need to take a qb at 1. If it’s Rosen, tell him he can come to Cleveland or sit on his couch. The position is too important to risk.
There are only 2 arguments against taking a qb at 1:
1.) there isn’t “the guy” available. I think we can all agree that’s not the case this year. At least one of the top qb prospect will be a franchise guy. It’s just a tad difficult figuring out which one.
2.) we can get a guy at 4 that’s just as good/better without wasting. The 1st pick. This is pure BS. Look at any draft. Very few times do multiple qbs pan out in a draft, and you’re better off having Your pick and letting somebody else take the scraps. Look at Luck/RG3. Manning/Leaf. Look at Cam Newton taken first. The next qbs picked were Blaine Gabbbert and Christian Ponder. (Not that Cam is al that great, mind you).
IMO it is either cowardice or arrogance to not take a qb at 1 this year. We need to take a chance on the guy WE WANT, not the guy that’s left. Because the guy that’s left is usually Brandon Weeden or Johnny Manziel or Deshone Kizer.
I trade back to #2 knowing Rosen doesnt’t want to play here, take RB Saquon Barkley at #2 knowing Barkley will be the target at 3 (Indy holds the pick but will likely trade out) take Allen at #4 and package some of our second round picks with the haul we get from the Giants and move back into the mid first to grab WR Courtland Sutton.
I would consider this an absolute coup and complete military take over of the NFL if that happens.
Terrible idea. We’re banking our QB of the future on A.) the team at 1 not taking the qb we want, b.) the team at 3 not taking or trading with another team that takes the qb we want, and c.) the qb we want at 4 being better than the qb(s) other teams already drafted because they liked more. I hate that.
We need to take a qb at 1. If it’s Rosen, tell him he can come to Cleveland or sit on his couch. The position is too important to risk.
There are only 2 arguments against taking a qb at 1:
1.) there isn’t “the guy” available. I think we can all agree that’s not the case this year. At least one of the top qb prospect will be a franchise guy. It’s just a tad difficult figuring out which one.
2.) we can get a guy at 4 that’s just as good/better without wasting. The 1st pick. This is pure BS. Look at any draft. Very few times do multiple qbs pan out in a draft, and you’re better off having Your pick and letting somebody else take the scraps. Look at Luck/RG3. Manning/Leaf. Look at Cam Newton taken first. The next qbs picked were Blaine Gabbbert and Christian Ponder. (Not that Cam is al that great, mind you).
IMO it is either cowardice or arrogance to not take a qb at 1 this year. We need to take a chance on the guy WE WANT, not the guy that’s left. Because the guy that’s left is usually Brandon Weeden or Johnny Manziel or Deshone Kizer.This this this, oh, and this!!!! Perfectly stated.
Freedom!!!
Right now I’m leaning towards QB 1st overall (not sure which) and Fitzpatrick 4th overall.
Is Barkeley the most amazing RB prospect in a while? Absolutely. Is he Adrian Peterson? Maybe. Does that win you a championship? No.
In 27 years you’ve found one guy to fit the criteria.
No, in comparing him to Favre, I found that they had very similar stats coming out of college (both below 60% completion %). I didn’t wade through 27 years of stats to disprove your assertion. I said he was like Favre and I provided Favre’s college stats to support MY assertion.
It’s obvious you haven’t watched the game film on Allen. In fact, you do this all the time. You only look at stats and never watch the film. You constantly argue statistics. Hell, we even have a name for it: “Souptistics”. Cherry picked stats prove nothing. Stats tell you what happened, they don’t tell you why.
That’s a very Browns mentality – doing things “no one else” has done before rather than going the smart route.
And that’s a very sales approach to organizational deficiencies. You think because you say it’s gospel. It’s obvious you’ve never been responsible for delivering the performance you demand. In July I took over the largest division (700 employees) of a $120 million dollar a year revenue company that was earning $4.9 in revenue per month that was losing $500,000/month. We’ve been profitable since October with $6.5 million in revenue in December and almost a million in profit this last quarter.
While at UWO it took me less than a year to eclipse MIT’s rocketry project. Literally rocket science.
I’m not humble bragging, I’m not arguing from authority, and I’m not saying you can’t have a different opinion. I love ya Soup, but I’ll be damned if you’re going to talk down to me.
I watch a TON of game film because I enjoy it. I knew about Mahomes before three quarters of the board had even heard of him (back in his 3rd round draft grade days). For the last 20 years I have regularly analyzed the play of Favre and Rodgers because they’re damn near literally in my back yard.
“Nope. Nope. Nope. Not 60% since 2000.” is not an argument. I’ll tell you from watching the film, his guys drop balls because he has a cannon for an arm. Favre had the same problem in college. NFL receivers make those catches. WRs at Wyoming don’t always. You’re punishing the kid and devaluing his draft stock for a completely bogus reason. He throws the ball away instead of taking a sack (Wyoming played legit defenses in Iowa, Oregon and Boise State). He turned the ball over a few times trying to force plays (Wyoming’s leading rusher Trey Woods had 493 yards and 2 TDs, their second leading rusher had 471 yards and 3 TDs, and Allen was #3 at 204 yards and 5 TDs). He takes snaps from under center, changed plays at the line and went through his progressions. That doesn’t show up in the stats, but it does in the film.
Watch his good and bad games (not highlight reels) and tell me if you disagree with that assessment. You may like Rosen or Darnold better, and I’m fine with that. Judge the assessment.
The Browns are an 0-16 team folks. You’re not going to turn this franchise around by copying your competition. You best be willing to take some risks. You best be innovative when it comes to turning picks into players. Sashi didn’t have it all wrong. We should have kept him to deal picks, but he was not the guy to pick players.
There’s a history of pairing dominant runners with young QBs and achieving success. Bettis and Roethlisberger. Wilson and Lynch. Prescott and Elliot. Tomlinson and Rivers. Don’t act like it’s crazy. A great running game takes pressure off of a QB and don’t act like you don’t know that.
IMO it is either cowardice or arrogance to not take a qb at 1 this year. We need to take a chance on the guy WE WANT, not the guy that’s left. Because the guy that’s left is usually Brandon Weeden or Johnny Manziel or Deshone Kizer.
In my opinion, it is stupidity to reach for a QB just because you need one. Russell Wilson was on the board when Weeden was selected. Derek Carr was on the board when Manziel was selected. Again, we were 0-16 and this franchise is going to need to “win” the draft and in the off season to have any hope of being competitive next year. Calculated risks.
Let’s say Allen is their guy and he goes off at the combine and on his pro day. We saw that happen with Wentz. Wentz wasn’t the franchise’s guy, Goff was. Hindsight is 20/20, but if you’re placing your career on the line for a QB, you want to make sure he’s your guy. Last year, Mahomes was my guy. Not @ #1 though. Not if I have to justify passing on Myles Garrett.
Agree or disagree, but Saquon Barkley is my best player available. He’s my pick at 1. If Allen somehow leapfrogs him during the combine, my strategy changes -but- I have no way of knowing if that will happen right now. My strategy of drafting Barkley at #1 is for right now. As Ice pointed out, 2 of the top 3 picks will be QBs. My money is on Rosen and Darnold for those picks. Allen is my guy. Barkley at #1, Rosen #2, Darnold #3, Allen #4. Is there risk? You bet. Is there a potential for even greater reward? Absolutely.
Here’s why I’m not worried. Allen/Darnold/Rosen remind me of Roethlisberger/Rivers/Manning. With Lamar Jackson, Baker Mayfield and Mason Rudolph also declaring (and our glut of second round picks) we can, and should, double down at QB in the second round like Washington did when they took RG3 and Cousins. There is minimal risk trading back to #2 and taking Barkley, and if we land Barkley, “Our Guy” and Courtland Sutton, we’re not going 0-16 next year. Take your QB and Minkah Fitzpatrick and tell me that might not still be a possibility.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Right now I’m leaning towards QB 1st overall (not sure which) and Fitzpatrick 4th overall.
Is Barkeley the most amazing RB prospect in a while? Absolutely. Is he Adrian Peterson? Maybe. Does that win you a championship? No.Ice as an FSU guy why Fitz over D.James????
Personally I lean towards James as Albaqma defenders under Saban almost always have reached their peak ceiling because Saban is such a good coach.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
DawgStyle: how much of Wentz do you see in Allan in any category? As I am starting to read research and watch his tapes he kind of reminds me of Wentz….maybe he won’t be NFL MVP candidate in year 2 but not every body gets it THAT right …even me. :p
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
DawgStyle: how much of Wentz do you see in Allan in any category? As I am starting to read research and watch his tapes he kind of reminds me of Wentz….maybe he won’t be NFL MVP candidate in year 2 but not every body gets it THAT right …even me. :p
Physically, they’re very comparable. Allen has a stronger arm than Wentz. Wentz is a more fundamentally sound passer. Wentz is also better in the pocket, but Allen gets the nod when rolling out. I think Wentz gets through his progressions quicker, but Allen still goes through his progressions better than most college prospects. Also, Wentz throws a more “catchable” ball. Allen tends to “Elway” it from time too time and puts a little too much mustard on it. He has a very natural throwing motion with a quick release though. No long wind up like Osweiler. He really whips the ball, and it results in a tight spiral. Both are gunslingers.
Truth be told, I think Allen has the most upside in this draft. I, like Soup, was concerned about his completion percentage until I went to the game film. I love that he has an NFL frame and +++Arm Strength. He needs to learn to put some touch on some of his passes, and he needs to get his footwork under control. That’s not anything that worries me at the next level though (like grip or throwing mechanics).
I think Allen is this year’s Roethlisberger and he’ll spend quite a bit of his future beating on Rosen and Darnold.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0I just want to say that you tarred and feathered Soup and then kicked him down a hill.
I enjoyed that greatly lol.
only made it through half the thread due to the great parade today….
but this was definitely some interesting conversation. I wouldn’t have even thought of cousins as a possibility.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
In 27 years you’ve found one guy to fit the criteria.
No, in comparing him to Favre, I found that they had very similar stats coming out of college (both below 60% completion %). I didn’t wade through 27 years of stats to disprove your assertion. I said he was like Favre and I provided Favre’s college stats to support MY assertion.Understood, I thought it was the other way around due to my “request” of finding a successful NFL QB since 2000
It’s obvious you haven’t watched the game film on Allen. In fact, you do this all the time. You only look at stats and never watch the film. You constantly argue statistics. Hell, we even have a name for it: “Souptistics”. Cherry picked stats prove nothing. Stats tell you what happened, they don’t tell you why.
Correct.
That’s a very Browns mentality – doing things “no one else” has done before rather than going the smart route.
And that’s a very sales approach to organizational deficiencies. You think because you say it’s gospel. It’s obvious you’ve never been responsible for delivering the performance you demand. In July I took over the largest division (700 employees) of a $120 million dollar a year revenue company that was earning $4.9 in revenue per month that was losing $500,000/month. We’ve been profitable since October with $6.5 million in revenue in December and almost a million in profit this last quarter.I’ve no doubt you’d be a rousing success. As for “performance I demand,” you know what they say about assumptions right? #1 in earnings in 2017. #2 in total billing. (I concentrate on what effects my pay more than the companies take home.). Did I mention the person that beat me in billing has been there several years longer than me? Did I also mention I beat in billing SEVERAL people who’ve been there SEVERAL years longer than me?
Did I reach MY demand? Nope. I never do. I always set high goals. The higher the goal – if you miss – typically you’ll be higher than the one that was “reasonable” to set.
While at UWO it took me less than a year to eclipse MIT’s rocketry project. Literally rocket science.
I’m not humble bragging, I’m not arguing from authority, and I’m not saying you can’t have a different opinion. I love ya Soup, but I’ll be damned if you’re going to talk down to me.My apologies if you thought I was talking down to you. I wasn’t. I view the site as friends at a bar. For the record if we were going to compare our overall intelligence — you’d be Harvard and I’d be a GED. Quite frankly I’ve dealt with few people as intelligent as you in my lifetime.
I watch a TON of game film because I enjoy it. I knew about Mahomes before three quarters of the board had even heard of him (back in his 3rd round draft grade days). For the last 20 years I have regularly analyzed the play of Favre and Rodgers because they’re damn near literally in my back yard.
“Nope. Nope. Nope. Not 60% since 2000.” is not an argument. I’ll tell you from watching the film, his guys drop balls because he has a cannon for an arm. Favre had the same problem in college. NFL receivers make those catches. WRs at Wyoming don’t always. You’re punishing the kid and devaluing his draft stock for a completely bogus reason. He throws the ball away instead of taking a sack (Wyoming played legit defenses in Iowa, Oregon and Boise State). He turned the ball over a few times trying to force plays (Wyoming’s leading rusher Trey Woods had 493 yards and 2 TDs, their second leading rusher had 471 yards and 3 TDs, and Allen was #3 at 204 yards and 5 TDs). He takes snaps from under center, changed plays at the line and went through his progressions. That doesn’t show up in the stats, but it does in the film.
Watch his good and bad games (not highlight reels) and tell me if you disagree with that assessment. You may like Rosen or Darnold better, and I’m fine with that. Judge the assessment.
The Browns are an 0-16 team folks. You’re not going to turn this franchise around by copying your competition. You best be willing to take some risks. You best be innovative when it comes to turning picks into players. Sashi didn’t have it all wrong. We should have kept him to deal picks, but he was not the guy to pick players.
There’s a history of pairing dominant runners with young QBs and achieving success. Bettis and Roethlisberger. Wilson and Lynch. Prescott and Elliot. Tomlinson and Rivers. Don’t act like it’s crazy. A great running game takes pressure off of a QB and don’t act like you don’t know that.There’s no place that tracks college drops. I wish there were.
Freedom!!!
DawgStyle: how much of Wentz do you see in Allan in any category? As I am starting to read research and watch his tapes he kind of reminds me of Wentz….maybe he won’t be NFL MVP candidate in year 2 but not every body gets it THAT right …even me. :p
Physically, they’re very comparable. Allen has a stronger arm than Wentz. Wentz is a more fundamentally sound passer. Wentz is also better in the pocket, but Allen gets the nod when rolling out. I think Wentz gets through his progressions quicker, but Allen still goes through his progressions better than most college prospects. Also, Wentz throws a more “catchable” ball. Allen tends to “Elway” it from time too time and puts a little too much mustard on it. He has a very natural throwing motion with a quick release though. No long wind up like Osweiler. He really whips the ball, and it results in a tight spiral. Both are gunslingers.
Truth be told, I think Allen has the most upside in this draft. I, like Soup, was concerned about his completion percentage until I went to the game film. I love that he has an NFL frame and +++Arm Strength. He needs to learn to put some touch on some of his passes, and he needs to get his footwork under control. That’s not anything that worries me at the next level though (like grip or throwing mechanics).
I think Allen is this year’s Roethlisberger and he’ll spend quite a bit of his future beating on Rosen and Darnold.See with Allen I think Kizer and him are very similar physical skill set. Allan has a much better release but has the same sailing throws Kizer does when he misses.
Is Allan better between the ears? I don not know.
Does Allan have more upside or downside than Kizer….I am not all that comfortable making an argument in ether direction as I think I could make valid arguments for and against. Bottom line at the moment I am very conflicted on Allan.http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
My apologies if you thought I was talking down to you. I wasn’t. I view the site as friends at a bar. For the record if we were going to compare our overall intelligence — you’d be Harvard and I’d be a GED. Quite frankly I’ve dealt with few people as intelligent as you in my lifetime.
My apologies for reading into that an inflection that wasn’t intended. Intelligence is overrated. I know many people whose intellects exceed my own and they choose to bake bread for a living because they cannot cope with stress. To that end, I find myself in business instead of being a contributor to the discussions that will someday unify field theory. In other words, I’m certainly not infallible. One of my greatest sources of pride is that I have done more with less than some, and one of my greatest sources of shame is that others have done more with less than I have. I mean hell, Dawgsoldier was right about Wentz (just playing DS, but good call on Wentz)!
My point in all this was essentially “lies, damn lies and statistics”. I am very data driven. You were right to hone in on his completion percentage. It is a red flag. I guess my only encouragement would be to not stop there or believe that a statistical metric is an absolute indicator of success (or failure). To whit, even a statistic tracking drops won’t give you insight into ball placement and a number of other relevant considerations as to why a pass was dropped.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0See with Allen I think Kizer and him are very similar physical skill set. Allan has a much better release but has the same sailing throws Kizer does when he misses.
I’ve seen just about every QB sail a throw from time to time. It’s not something that jumped out at me when watching his film. Do you have some specific examples or a game where it consistently occurred?
Is Allan better between the ears? I don not know.
Does Allan have more upside or downside than Kizer….I am not all that comfortable making an argument in ether direction as I think I could make valid arguments for and against. Bottom line at the moment I am very conflicted on Allan.The bolded is really the question. No one knows. You didn’t think Goff could transition from the Bear-Raid to the NFL. He did. I didn’t think Wentz could transition from NDSU to the NFL. He did. Luck hasn’t been the all-world QB he was supposed to be, while Rogers, who was taken after Alex Smith, is in the conversation to be the GOAT. I hope what we’re all learning from this is uncertainty. Two things really jump out at me right now:
1) No one really knows how a players skills will translate at the next level.
2) There is more than one pathway to success.
By all rights, Goff, an air raid QB, shouldn’t be successful based on the history of Air Raid QBs. Wentz, Mariota, Newton, Tyrod Taylor, Russell Wilson – there really is no prototype for success anymore. Traditionally, a Josh Gordon/Calvin Johnson type would be the best WR in the league. Now we see the Antonio Browns, Steve Smiths and Odell Beckmans of the world outperforming them. The archetype is gone.
I guess what I’m saying is if you’re not conflicted, you’re not paying attention. It is getting harder and harder to predict success. There is no easy answer anymore.
In a draft that saw Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel and Teddy Bridgewater go 1, 2, 3, Derek Carr and Jimmy Garopolo appear to be the best QBs from that class. So as we sit here and argue Rosen/Darnold/Allen, it may be Rudolph Mason and Baker Mayfield who go on to have the best NFL careers (and if that happened, would anyone really be that surprised?).
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Here’s why I like this kid:
Unlike Rosen who wants to end up in a good situation, Allen believes he is the answer. This guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. He has worked, and will work, to prove that he is not nothing.
The plays this kid makes in a pro style offense are just obscene.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Here’s why I like this kid:
<iframe width=”474″ height=”267″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/wLxoLGRZLnk?feature=oembed” frameborder=”0″ gesture=”media” allow=”encrypted-media” allowfullscreen=””></iframe>
Unlike Rosen who wants to end up in a good situation, Allen believes he is the answer. This guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. He has worked, and will work, to prove that he is not nothing.
The plays this kid makes in a pro style offense are just obscene.Saw that clip last night. Kid has a lot of what I liked about Wentz off the field. Blue collar kid with a great work ethic and hell of chip on his shoulder that plays with his hair on fire.
More like reFUCKINGdiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTuKHNz9vbA
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.